Swing Shift Vol 1

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Jun 292009
 

Last week I announced that Veronica and I would be starting a [hopefully] weekly column about participating in the swinging lifestyle and solicited your questions.   For those of you who either e-mailed me or left comments, I’ll get to yours in due time.   BTW, thanks to the always Sexy Sadie for suggesting the column title!  And I’m always happy to have more questions, so don’t be shy! This weeks questions comes from a reader who e-mailed me, asking to stay anonymous:

In the world of swinging..How are couples who are married to others but playing together viewed?  Is this something that should be talked about?  Is it necessary to include this information?  My initial thought is that it is important information that needs to be shared.

Reading this question, I thought of my blogger friend Wayward Wife.  Her blog is invite-only, which is why I’m not linking to her.  She is a married woman who is having an affair with another man, whom she participates in the lifestyle with.  I sent her this question [maintaining the questioners anonymity] and asked for her point of view.  Here is what she had to say:

If you are a couple that is married, but not to each other, or one of you is married and the other single, my best advice for you would be to not bring it up with anyone you swing with. There is a perception that swingers look down on cheaters, but I don’t have any experience with this in real life because my boyfriend and I (I am married, he is not) don’t reveal this information to people when we meet them in a swingers situation.

To be honest, we are rarely asked about our marital status when we meet people in real life at a club or event. Usually people just assume we are married and we don’t dissuade them of that notion or they just assume we are dating, which we are, in our own way.

On lifestyle websites, we are sometimes asked as part of the “get to know you” chatting that takes place with a woman or another couple, and we have a stock answer that we use for this situation, which also works well if anyone asks at a club. We tell them that we met on a swingers site about a year ago, and have been together ever since. If you substitute “married but dating website” for “swingers site” you pretty much have the truth, so it is an easy lie to stick with.

There is no way for anyone to prove that you are married or not. Some women or couples want to swing with other couples in more established relationships — ie, they want people to have been married for a few years, as opposed to just together for one year. If you encounter a couple like this, just move on, there are more fish in the sea, right?

The other issue with swinging as a non-married/cheating couple is a timing issue. Many women or couples want to get together on a Friday or Saturday night, when it is hard for cheaters to get away. We’ve solved this issue by telling people (if needed) that one of us often works nights, so are they free to meet on a Wednesday evening instead? As with the situation above, we move on if this doesn’t work out.

Now, the issue of where to fuck might be an issue if both members of the couple are married to other people. (f one is single, you use their pad, of course.) If that isn’t an option, coming up with an excuse as to why you have to go to the house of the couple you are meeting instead of your place (big angry dogs?) might work. Or, if you have an on premise club in your area you can go to, that solves that issue.

Veronica and I have not met any couples that we know to be in a situation like Wayward Wife’s, which is why I asked for her opinion.  To be honest, I think Veronica and I would avoid getting involved with a couple that is married, but not too each other.   Our preference is not just couples who are married, but who have kids as well.  Let’s face it, kids pose unique challenges to anyone’s social life, naughty-minded or not.  We’ve legitimately had to re-schedule or cancel dates because of kid-related issues.  It’s our contention, proven correct by the infamous Ned and Ann, that other parents are more understanding than non-parents.  It’s simply an issue of practicality for us.

Perhaps this appears hypocritical to some of you, based on my post yesterday about Veronica and I sleeping with married women in the past and willing to do so again.  So why not a married woman and her boyfriend? It’s not so much an ethical issue as it is a drama-avoidance tactic.  Getting together with a couple where one or both of them is cheating is inherently more risky that sleeping with a married woman.  So to answer the original question, Veronica and I would like to know, if only because we would want avoid that situation. However,

I know that Wayward Wife and her boyfriend have had some difficulty finding other partners.  I wonder if other swingers have figured out their situation and avoid them, as cute as she is. [I've met her, trust me...]  Seriously, I think that hiding the fact that the couple was married but not to each other would be pretty difficult and all of the excuses about times and places would raise red flags.  It probably would for us.

You’ll notice that none of our reasons for avoiding an adulterous couple are ethical.  I know that some of you think that the “they’re gonna cheat anyway” excuse is a bunch of B.S.  But it’s true, like it or not.

Yes, we’re quite possibly big ole stinkin’ hypocrites.  Go ahead and point it out, I won’t argue with you.

(Veronica: Hubman covered this so well that I do not have anything to add.  However I will be participating more in the weeks to cum.  Also, if you have a question where you really would prefer a woman’s perspective, please make sure and let us know.)

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  • Petal

    I dont think you are hypocrites at all. I understand why you would want to avoid any unnecessary drama or bullshit that could potentially come with a couple that are together through infidelity rather than marriage/partnership. Love your reasoning behind the other couple being parents and being more ‘kid’ understanding. The lovely thing about children is their ability to pick their moments!! something all parents definitely understand. Fantastic first post in the series, I very much look forward to reading more each week! Keep up the good work!

  • http://hubmanshangout.wordpress.com/ hubman38

    Petal- thank you for the compliment! Kids do pick their moments, fortunately for us it’s only happened on a few occasions. I’ve got 3 more weeks worth of questions put aside, so this series should last at least that long!

  • http://www.returningtocenter.blogspot.com Athena

    Seriously, this is some fascinating shit.

    You know how they say it’s a miracle anyone ever gets pregnant with all the mishaps that can occur between sperm and egg and actually making it into the womb?

    It’s a wonder, with kids, husbands, drama, etc that swingers ever find another couple to make it into the sack with.

  • http://topaz-gemology.blogspot.com Topaz

    For your first post in Swing Shift (love the name, btw!) I can tell this is going to be straightforward and informative to the point of success. I’ve said before that you and Veronica haven’t been in the lifestyle very long, but the wealth of information you provided on this question alone is invaluable. And thank you to Wayward Wife for her contribution. Location has been a burning question of mine!
    And never you mind those who would call you a hypocrite. I say this not just because I like ya, but addressing the way ethics does not have to play in the couple’s decision making process as much as preference should pretty much shush the naysayers.
    I look forward to future posts!

  • http://aprilsrandomshowers.blogspot.com April

    You know, I don’t think you’re a hypocrite either. Knowing what you want, doesn’t make you a hypocrite.

    Before my husband and I were married, we had a lot of trouble finding other couples. No one wanted to be with us if we weren’t married. After we got married it was easier to find couples who were willing. But the problem we faced after that was finding other attractive couples who were in our age range (mid 20′s – early 30′s) as we were in our mid 20′s. We found that most of the couples were in their 40′s and up, which doesn’t surprise me. I think it takes someone who’s had more experience in life and relationships to be comfortable in that situation. Of course there are exceptions, like me, but it was really hard to find. Have you noticed a lot of younger couples (20′s) in the scene? Not that you aren’t young. =)

  • http://amidlifescrises.blogspot.com Dana

    Interesting topic …

    And let me just say, it’s one thing to be hypocritical and attempt to justify it, and another thing to be hypocritical and relish in it! It’s all about being real (in my world), and I think you and Veronica have more than covered that!

    • http://amidlifescrises.blogspot.com/ Dana

      Just for clarity, this was meant to be a compliment, but I’m not sure it read that way.

      • http://hubmanshangout.wordpress.com/ hubman38

        No, it didn’t, thanks for the clarification ;-)

  • spin

    Ahhh, I guess I’m S.O.L. My hub would NEVER be into this. I wouldn’t want to bring a boyfriend into any situation by being dishonest with a couple that swings.I will have to keep living out my fantasies here. This is good though.

  • http://www.sexyptamom.blogspot.com Grace

    Very interesting start, guys! I hadn’t really given this much thought. We were swingers back before kids when we were still dating, and no one ever minded that we weren’t married, and then we did get married and actually had some swinging friends there behaving themselves (hey, they brought their kids!) like “normal” folks. ;p Everyone we knew well was married to each other, and that just seemed like the norm, but maybe times have changed. I think it is smart to connect with people who are married with kids, because they will understand your situation, and, even more important, really share your absolute need for discretion.

  • http://www.wherewegetoff.blogspot.com Dharma

    This subject sort of came up a little this weekend, while Greg was here.

    We’re brand new to the alternative “lifestyle” (have I said how I hate that word?). We haven’t ventured out into the community yet. We haven’t even had a real swinger-encounter, at this point. I think, also, that we would be more defined as having an “open-relationship-with-swinger-tendencies” than we would be just straight “swingers,” because we allow for playing alone with someone other than each other, even though we require (and our completely turned on by) full disclosure of any encounter that doesn’t involve both of us. The only outside-the-norm experiences we’ve had thus far are a threesome with a female friend of mine and there is a rendezvous on the horizon between him and his ex-wife that will have them together to take pictures and video of mutual masturbation and will certainly culminate in them actually having sex. So like I said, our experience is limited.

    But to the point at hand, there is a house party planned for my local swingers’ community in a few weeks, and Greg will not be able to attend (he won’t be back until the weekend after). It is the first party that either of us will have the chance to attend, and I was considering going by myself. Greg is supportive of that. I asked another girlfriend of mine if she wanted to join me, but she’ll be out of town. So I mentioned to Greg that I was sure my (soon-to-be)ex-husband would be more than happy to accompany me.

    Greg’s first response to that was one of uncertainty. I asked him, curiously not argumentatively, how it was any different than him having the upcoming sexual encounter with his ex-wife, which I would not be present for? We talked a bit about it, and I think we came up with the thought that it was different because I would be presenting myself to the community (that he and I intended to be a part of) as a “couple” with my ex. It wasn’t because he didn’t want me to be intimate with my ex or that there was an issue of marking one’s territory.

    It led me to consider how much I would disclose to the people at the party. Would I be viewed poorly, or as a cheater, if I brought one play-partner (especially a former spouse) and then showed up at later events with my true partner. I think I’ve determined that I will probably just go alone, but mostly because of the complications it would cause with other people, not so much because I’m uncomfortable or Greg is uncomfortable (he has sanctioned the idea, if I choose to take my ex). I’m afraid that, especially for a first-timer, I would be viewed poorly, so it just makes better sense to go alone and not alienate myself from everyone…

  • http://www.wherewegetoff.blogspot.com Dharma

    For the record, Greg and I are not legally divorced from either of our spouses. But we are together as a couple, soon to be living together. I guess that is information that wouldn’t be readily shared, huh?

  • http://hubmanshangout.wordpress.com/ hubman38

    Athena- it has taken us a while! Almost 9 months and half a dozen couples later, we’ve finally found the couple we’d like to see again and again, and the feeling is mutual for them.

    Topaz- thank you for your kind words! I can only hope that future posts are as well received!

    April- I think I might use your comments about age in the lifestyle for a future post, because we have noticed a degree of age-ism. Also, I’ve been pleasantly surprised to find myself so thoroughly enjoying my time with a woman almost 10 years old than me. But to answer your question, we’ve noticed much fewer couples in their 20s than in their forties.

    Dana- I’m not relishing my hypocrisy. It is what it is, no more or less. I’ve never hidden that I’m flawed, just like everyone else.

    Spin- remember, this is just my take on couples who are married but not to each other. As Wayward Wife shared, were there is a will, there’s a way.

    Grace- I think most everyone, with kids or not, shares a desire for discretion. Let’s face it, there is a social stigma towards the lifestyle and some of us also face negative consequences in our professional lives. From what I’ve seen, I bet you were VERY popular in the lifestyle ;-)

    Dharma- I dislike ‘lifestyle’ too, but not as much as ‘swinger’. For some reason, it just feels weird to me to refer to myself as a swinger. Don’t know why…

    You and Greg are considering taking soon-to-be exes to a swingers party? And they’re okay with this? I’ll say this- single women, aka unicorns, are extremely rare at lifestyle parties- we’ve yet to meet one ourselves. Do you *really* want to bring your ex to a party? That just screams “drama” to me. I’m curious to hear how it goes, I hope you’ll let me know.

  • http://www.wherewegetoff.blogspot.com Dharma

    Honestly, it was just a passing thought. It’s not going to happen. Although I’m certain that it wouldn’t cause an drama issues for Greg and me (or my ex — the proposed “date” for the party), I’m sure it would be rather difficult to explain in a way that didn’t seem completely ridiculous to others in our local community, especially considering that Greg will be here permanently in less than a month, and so would be attending any future events with me.

    The suggestion was made half in jest, but inspired an excellent opportunity for further conversation regarding our own personal feelings and boundaries. After reading this post, I’m glad to say that we decided to not go forward with the idea. While neither Greg nor I would view an occasional encounter with an ex as cheating (and you know that we’ve given this some serious consideration), we’re sure that every “lifestyle” has its own boundaries and rules, and we’re okay with that.

    • http://hubmanshangout.wordpress.com/ hubman38

      Dharma- to be honest, I’m happy to read that you’re not going to do that. Talk about mixed messages to your to-be-ex spouses, to say the least! Interesting fodder for a conversation about boundaries, though…

  • http://anothersuburbanmom.blogspot.com Another Suburban Mom

    Well it seems that you have generated lots of great comments baby! I can’t wait to work on next week’s question.

  • Barney

    Ive always been interested in the possibilities of this “lifestyle” (no I dont like the name either)

    So question…The first time… was it hard to not get jelouse watching another man or women in Veronica’s case.. pleasure your spouse?

    I have a friend who is interested in the lifestyle.. and he’s asked me a few times to join him, and present ourselves to the community as a couple….Ive had threesomes before, with him, and with another couple.. and Ive always enjoyed myself. Im just wondering do you have boundry words? Signs? Say for instance, You meet another couple, your into the other women, but Veronica isnt into the man.. or vice versa… how do you go about letting said couple down..and letting your S.O. know?

    Oh lord..I do hope this makes sense….!!!

  • http://aprilsrandomshowers.blogspot.com April

    OH, Barney brings up a great question too. The ex and I had a hard time finding couples that we were both interested in. Many times the girl would be attractive but the man, not so much. The opposite would happen occasionally, but not as often.

    Good question, Barney!! ;)

  • Eva

    I just came across your blog and so far LOVE IT!!!

    My hubby and I have been in the lifestyle for a number of years. We have differing opinions on this topic. Hubby believes that he has no control over what others do so if someone is going to cheat then it is between them and the person they are committed to. So, he has no qualms about getting involved with someone whom we know are cheating in some manner. I agree with him in part.

    Personally I can’t bring myself to knowingly play with someone whom is cheating. Firstly I think it’s the principle of it. It’s that sort of behavior that gives the lifestyle a bad name. It’s so difficult to overcome the beliefs of the vanilla world and that sort of thing just reiterates their closed minded beliefs. Also, having been married in the past to a habitual cheater (despite the fact that we had an open marriage) and knowing how devastating it can be I could not bring myself to be a party to it. Sure, they are going to cheat regardless…but, that doesn’t mean I have to lower myself to that standard. And, as your friend said, there are more fish in the sea. Just not my cup of tea….

    We are also selective in whom we play with as far as the status of their relationship. Married or not is of no consequence to us but we do choose to play with those whom are in committed relationships and have a solid foundation. We also generally limit our play time with seasoned swingers. We just don’t want to deal with the possible drama. Everyone has their bad experiences and we have had our fair share with couples who were so new they didn’t really know what they wanted or whose relationship was rocky so one party got a “crush” on one of us. It’s just not worth the head ache.

    I am right there with ya on preferring couples with kiddos! Those without kids don’t seem to understand that you can not always drop everything because they want to play or that sometimes when you have young ones things just happen and plans change. A vast majority of our friends in RL are swingers or some variation of open marriage because we prefer to surround ourselves with those of similar interests whom are more open minded. Since our kids are a big part of our life it helps to be able to relate. It’s always a nice bonus to be able to get together for play time with the kids during the day and then enjoy adult play at night.

   

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