An education is an investment

Tagged with: education, opinionated jerk, Rant

Aug 302010

With the end of summer upon us and thoughts turning to the beginning of another school year, I wonder how many people think of a college education in investment terms. Probably not as many who should.

Think about these numbers: between Veronica and I, we have 5 degrees, BA and MA for her, BS, MS, and Ph.D. for me. I had 1 student loan for less than $5000 and Veronica had about $15,000 in loans for our undergraduate degrees. Our graduate degrees? Not a single penny in loans. My Ph.D. cost me no more than whatever I laid out for textbooks and parking permits, probably less than $1000 over the course of 4 years. The return on that investment? I’m making about $40,000/year MORE than the job offer I turned down when I decided to go back to school.

Now consider my dad’s girlfriend’s granddaughter (got that?), she’s the one who spent the past year studying abroad in Italy and got my dad and his gf to come visit her. She just started her 3rd year at a college that costs somewhere in the neighborhood of $40,000 per year. And guess what? She still hasn’t declared a major!

$80,000 invested so far, without a fuckin’ clue how she’s going to utilize that investment! And don’t get me started on her parents idiocy, blindly assuming debt in the form of student loans so their daughter can do what exactly?

But I’ll cut her a little slack, a lot of people start their undergraduate education without knowing just what they want to study. Look at me, I started out as a physical education major and now I’m a biomedical researcher! What really bugs me are the people who complete their undergraduate education then continue on to graduate school for what are frankly pretty dumb reasons- “I’m interested in such and such”, “Well, since I can’t get a good job with my degree”, “I think it would be cool to study such-and-such”. Intellectual curiosity and a love of academia are fine and dandy, but considering what school costs, those alone aren’t enough.

How about these reasons?
- You’re on a career trajectory that is going to plateau if you don’t continue your education and you’re pursuing a concrete career goal
- There’s actually a market for the skillset/knowledge that you’re pursuing. For example, while Harvard is a fine institution of higher education, I’m skeptical that the price tag for a graduate degree in Germanic Languages and Literature is really worth it, unless you’re independently wealthy.
- State licensing mandates a graduate degree (teachers, some therapists, social workers, etc)

When I was pursing my doctorate, I worked in a lab with 3 other students, 2 of whom started the program right after completing their undergraduate degrees and 1 who like me who worked for several years before returning to school (that would be my former office wife Lisa, you remember meeting her, right Emmy?). Three years after we all graduated, I’m thrilled with how my career is progressing (regardless of 10 weeks away from home!) and Lisa’s grant-writing and publishing record thus far is quite enviable. Professionally-speaking, our careers are exactly where she and I wanted them to be at this point.

The other two, the two that started the program immediately after completing their undergraduate degrees, aren’t doing as well. C is on her 2nd post-doc, barely earning a decent wage and floundering along without direction, not sure what she wants to do. Not a good situation to be in, 4 yrs after earning a Ph.D. And L has a decent job working for a major sports drink manufacturer in their R&D group, but it’s not what she really wanted, it’s more where she ended up due to our advisers influence, not her desire.

I could cite other examples, but you get the idea. Work for a few years, find your passion, and THEN figure out if graduate school is what NEED, not just WANT. Otherwise you could be saddling yourself with a financial burden that will take years to get out from under.

You disagree with me? That’s what comments are for, lets hear it!

From Surviving the World, one of my favorite daily reads, always something good!

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J

Wow, this is really helpful. Now I have something to think about. I’m graduating March 2011, with a flashy degree. [I say flashy cause the whole name sometimes intimidate people. Really not too impressive, imo.] I can take the actuarial exams, but thinking of an MS in finance.. without even a day of work experience. Not even a summer/temp/part-time job. So it is something to think about.. I’m just terrified of work, tbh. Being sheltered I guess really isn’t too great.

I’ve been reading your blog for a while, and this is the first time I’ll comment. Thank you for this.
Frances

Wish someone had been this frank with me during my undergraduate and graduate degrees. I feel I had no concept of the debt I was gathering til it was too late. Til I started paying bills myself. Though I loved my course of study, now that I’m a real adult with adult concerns I sometimes wonder what would have happened had I chosen my ‘back up major’ instead of the one I was truly passionate about that has little promise of success. At this point it is what it is and I will NEVER make enough to rival you hubs, but I think overall I’m happy cause I get to do things I like and still what I’m terribly passionate about. (this would have been much easie to say if I didn’t have to be so vague. Lol. Hope it makes sense).
~m

I do agree an education is an investment, but I had NO clue what I wanted to do with my life. Well. I did and pursued a theater degree, but eventually my parents said enough, you need a real major. I fumbled along changing majors every semester. Nothing else interested me. End result – 4 colleges, 7 years, no degree. Now, nearly 20 years later, I’ve got an okay job, but not one that I love, but it supports my habits. (Not to mention student loans I had to pay off and had nothing to show for it.)

Now and again, I find myself thinking that I’d like to go back, finish my undergrad degree, but then I find myself back in the whole crisis of figuring out what want to do. At my age (early 40s), I don’t know if it’s worth it.

I don’t consider myself stupid in any way, just sans degree. I know a little bit about a lot of things – just enough to be dangerous. (Though now that I’m dating a physician, I find myself very self conscious about this lack of an education.) I’m passionate about and have a natural gift with languages – which I’ve always thought would be a good degree to have, at the very least I could teach. But the larger issue for me is that if I don’t like a subject matter, I have little patience for it and don’t apply myself. Part of the issue I’m without a degree because I didn’t like some of the courses (aka maths) necessary to complete a degree.

I dunno. It’s something I struggle with daily. Do I give up a job where I’m making decent money to go back to school and complete a degree where I may or may not end up making more money in the short term? Some days I think I should have just gone to trade school and become a plumber. Either that or I should have found me a Sugar Daddy.

You’ve just given me a little more to think about…
http://minorityreportunderground.blogspot.com/ minority report

“Work for a few years, find your passion, and THEN figure out if graduate school is what NEED, not just WANT. Otherwise you could be saddling yourself with a financial burden that will take years to get out from under.”

THAT is why I still haven’t gone back for my Master’s. I have no idea what I want to be when I grow up.
http://iveylane.blogspot.com Ivey Lane

I agree on most point and disagree on one big one. Saddling yourself with massive debt to pursue a higher education is a bad, bad idea; in fact, I think you need to repeat high school math and calculate the result of starting your career $30k – $80k in debt. And as for parents footing the bill, unless they are uber-wealthy and can indulge their grown children to that level, jeapordizing your own savings for your children is, quite frankly, stupid. When you factor in the uncertainty of our social safety nets, spending your nest egg on your kids is foolish.

And I also agree about having a clue regarding the realisitic payoff of certain degrees. BUT, and this is important, if you really are passionate about Germanic Languages and Literature you can have a very rewarding career. It’s incorrect to judge the value of someone’s success based on how much money they earn. Provided you earnn enough to support your own lifestyle, what you “make” is a poor measure for “success.”

Moreover, the key to finiancial success isn’t one-sided. It isn’t just revenue in; it’s the difference between revenue in vs. expenses out. Vince and I know plenty of people who have higher incomes, yet are financially screwed because they don’t have enough left of what they earn.

I have an BA in Theater and MA in Human Resources (and have never worked a day in an “HR deparment” but that’s another story. Shudder.) Vince has a BA in Recording Industry Managment. My theater degree was not a waste of time nor was my HR degree some magic ticket, even though I use the things I learned every day. I wish I had more education in writing since now I’m a writer but I hire editors to fix my grammar errors rather than go back to school. One can have a very good, rewarding life in the arts. And as I said when I was interviewed for a major theater magazine, “My career success now is not ‘in spite’ of my life in the theater and arts, it is a result of it.”

So to sum up, debt for education is a bad idea unless their is pretty much a garauntee of a high dollar figure job on the other side (e.g. MD, JD) AND, and this is key, the strength of character to ultimately live within your means. However, the path of one’s life, to ensure meaning and promote happiness, have to do with how well you live, not how much you make.

Kisses sugar!
Ivey
http://iveylane.blogspot.com Ivey Lane

PS — And I hate that picture. And the others like it that fucking insist that art requires no skill and certainly no intelligence. Always have. Always will.
http://hubmanshangout.com hubman38

J- Only you can decide what’s the right thing to do after you graduate, but considering that you have no work experience in your field, I’d strongly suggest working, even for a year or two, before you look into graduate school. Thanks for commenting!

Frances- you illustrate the challenge many people face, finding something that you’re passionate about AND has the promise of some degree of success. I was lucky, my career field also offers decent earning potential, though perhaps not as much as you might think.

~m- if it’s a crisis to think about what you might go back to school for, that tells me that you don’t need to go back to school! That being said, age should never be a barrier to returning to school. If you find something that you’re passionate about, by all means go back to school! I was 33 yrs old and had a 3 yr old son when I started by Ph.D. program, it was well worth it!

Minority Report- so what’s the rush? Keep doing what you like and maybe someday you’ll find that you want/need to return.

Ivey Lane- I think it’s self-evident that one’s income is a poor measure of success, there are a number of people, across the income spectrum, who are unable to live within their means. And many, many individuals have had very successful careers with Arts degrees. Veronica had dual majors as an undergraduate, English and Theater and while she never directly used either, what she learned has contributed to her professional success.

I’m not quite sure what you disagree with, it seems like we’re basically saying the same thing.

Would you be happier if the picture had “Training” instead of “Skill”, Ms. Sensitive-about-the-arts?
http://hubmanshangout.com hubman38

Ivey Lane- you know, I was about to get into the shower when I had a thought about that picture you hate so much, and you’re misinterpreting it. It doesn’t say it requires less skill to perform in the arts as it does to be a scientist, it says that the degree of “fame”, in relation to the degree of skill possessed by the individual, is not proportionate when comparing actors and scientists.

You don’t believe me? Name 20 actors and actresses. I bet you, and many others, can rattle off a list with little or no effort. Now do the same with scientists. The names don’t come so easy, do they?

And did you fail to notice that authors are listed right up alongside scientists? I’m pretty sure that writing is an art…
fionna

I whole-heartedly agree with your post. I toyed with the idea of pursuing a Ph.D. right after college (I was a Psych/Neuroscience girl) and my adviser told me I should only go if I was 100% certain that’s what I wanted. Best advice I’ve ever gotten! I opted to work in lab for a year or so and then go back. Well, after a year or so I did go back, but for a Masters in an entirely different field. I still toy with the idea of going back for another degree (something to blend the two I already have), but it’s not in the finances right now and I’m not totally sure what I’d go for. I need a specific plan first.

You should get The Dateable Dork to weigh in on this…she’s embarking on her own Ph.D. journey these days.
Mike

Hey Hubman, great post and so very true. My son just started his freshman year at Ga Tech, in their biomedical engineering program. He wants to possibly go pre-med with an end goal of being a surgeon, but he feels that an engineering degree in that field opens up a wide range of career options in case medical school doesn’t work out.
http://iveylane.blogspot.com Ivey Lane

Now see here, buddy! When you start off saying you were thinking of me while getting in the shower I DO NOT want to find out it’s because you think I was wro…. wro…. (com’on, Ivey, you can say it.) wrong.

(BTW — the parentheticals are for your readers who don’t know us and I don’t want them to read this as a snark. So…)

(Ivey smiles radiantly) I concede you’re point. The X/Y axis was making a point about the amount of skill required to achieve fame. That said, the point of the image OVERALL, (lowers chin and looks over top of glasses), and you KNOW this is accurate, is a judgment regarding the worth of certain vocations over others. It is social commentary that get’s its punchline from the notion that it doesn’t take a lot of skill to be famous, hence “actors/actresses” are barely above people who can fuck on camera as far as having skills go.

And yes (the smile saddens a bit) I am Ms. Sensitivity about it. One of the things I used my HR degree for was to teach job search and career development at my local community college to kids pursuing artistic fields. For some, the delusions of grandeur were so out of proportion that anything less than super-stardom is going to be failure in their eyes. For others, they knew they wanted careers in the arts but every day they encountered someone, usually someone who either should have been supportive (like a parent) or should’ve minded their own fucking business would mock, denigrate, or otherwise pooh-pooh their choice as foolish or childish. How many bloggers do you and I know (thinks of three off the top of my head) who’s artistic creativity screams in their writing and their photos yet they “got jobs” and are now in their late-30s and 40s and struggling not only with money but with meaning.

I also might be sensitive about it in the same way that a man wearing fatigues would be a little annoyed with image that portrayed military personnel as “jar-heads.” Or one that portrays teachers as “those who can do; those who can’t teach.” It cuts close to the bone. I spend most of my time now working with Ph.D’s and other incredibly educated people and I almost always have to hide my theater background because of this very well-it-doesn’t-take-any-skills-or-intelligence nonsense.

So to me, (she says seriously) you’re right, we agree about the primary point of your post — education and “investment” — and as a pursuit of happiness I’d add that you can have a financially and emotionally rewarding career in the arts. And if someone is reading this who’s contemplating returning to college or pursuing higher education, and in their heart they want that thing to be arts or literature or some other generally dismissed as “not worth it” or “not real” or “unskilled” career, then I hope that I’ve encouraged them otherwise.

Oh, and please try to think of me again when you return to the shower. Trust me, when I think of you naked, your smarts are the furthest thing from my mind.

XOXO,
Ivey
http://rtws.blogspot.com Emmy

I do remember Lisa! And I think I will now forever given the interesting circumstances behind how we met.

I do agree with taking time off between degrees to figure out what you really want to do. I remember one of my fellow computer science majors who spent more time in campus politics than he did the computer lab. Having this realization late in our senior year, he decided he would go to grad school for a master’s degree to get more experience. I recall verbally smacking him along side the head. He wasn’t going to gain more experience in grad school. He was going to gain more student loans. I suggested an internship.

G taking time off to go explore the world was the greatest thing he could have done. Does he earn more money? A bit. But had he gone the path he was thinking right after college, I can guarantee you, he would have quit teaching because he would have tried to teach the wrong grad level.

Good post. I do think there is one major exception – becoming a doctor. You can do it – go back to school later – but there is something about momentum that is build from undergrad that helps as does having the body of a 22 year old who can function fine on 20 minutes of sleep.
http://100waystobeperverse.wordpress.com Janie

This is quite apt to me because I am about to do exactly what you recommend against. Part of it is that I would not to my undergrad degree again. I have enjoyed it, I still love Classics in a massively nerdy way but really it is no longer my first love. And it never had a career path. But when I was 17 and choosing a degree, I didn’t know that I would become a sex blogger and become interested in gender and sexuality and want to pursue sociology instead. But without going to University full stop I might never have learnt that either. I regret the £25k of debt I am now saddled with, but I don’t regret all the growing up I got to do whilst doing it.

The Masters programme I’m about to apply to does not have guaranteed payback. I still don’t know what I want to do when I grow up. Thankfully I probably won’t be getting into more debt to do it but I know that I would regret doing it when I got older.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, at all. You are very right and sensible. But in a world where you can’t get a decent job without some sort of degree, the debt is sort of inevitable. And I *want* my Masters more than anything and even if I never need it I will enjoy every second of it and you always regret the stuff you don’t do more than the stuff you do right?

I think that was a little rambled in my bid to defend my probably very stupid life choices. But hey, when I’m the next Dan Savage none of this will matter

xoxox
http://paigesblogofnothing.blogspot.com Just me…

One thing I learned as an undergrad, the thing that was more valuable than the degree itself, was not to sink into debt doing it.. It may take a little longer, but paying for it yourself makes much more valuable.
My parents did me a great service by paying for the first two years.. But, when I had no clear path, the $$ stopped.. So, I went to work, worked my way up to the top of ladder available to me in a very short time, realized that I was limited by not having a degree, went back to college, worked full-time while doing so and finished the last two years in 2.3 years.. With a 3.89 GPA…
Thinking that was the best lesson I could have learned..
http://anothersuburbanmom.blogspot.com Another Suburban Mom

I know I am late to the party, but I believe that you should pursue your passion. If you want to study romance language or renaissance dance or astrophysics, go for it. However you should think about the amount of debt you are incurring to do so.

The real problem is that the cost of education has risen way faster than inflation. Its time for schools to take a real look about what they charge and why they are charging that much.

But that is a whole other post.