Swing Shift Volume 36- The Care and Feeding of Beginners

 Tagged with: , , ,
Mar 222010
 

A regular reader e-mailed me the following:

It appears from reading your accounts that you’ve had the experience several times in the past year of being someone’s First – first extramarital event, first swing, first 3-or-moresome, first girl-girl.

Any thoughts on the care and feeding of beginners? How did these firsts come about – your idea or theirs? How much pre-planning and advance discussion? How did you deal with nerves on their part or yours?

Some of this might be useful not only for others in your position but for anyone leading anyone into new outside-the-comfort-zone experiences.

If you think about it, we’ve all been beginners at some time. For Veronica and I, SwingerWife was a valuable source of advice and support as we started to explore the lifestyle.  [Sadly her blog is gone, so there's nothing to link to.]  The longer we’ve been playing, obviously the frequency of “firsts” declines and we became the experienced couple.  Looking back, while we suspect that several of the couples we’ve played with were relative newbies, that was something we figured out afterward.  Case in point are Ned and Ann, just click on “The Tale of Ned and Ann” at the top of this page for the full story of that disaster.

Times when we have knowingly been a “first” for someone else have almost been exclusively with blog friends, people that we’re already friends with.  A good example is The Dirty Side of Us.  We’ve known her and her family through her mommy blog for almost as long as we’ve been blogging.  Last fall she came to visit us for a long weekend, for what was originally planned as a purely vanilla/non-sex visit.  As the date approached, knowing that we find her attractive, she let us know that she was interested in possibly playing with us.  She had never had any 3some or girl-girl experience and wanted to explore, with the full knowledge and consent of her hubby.

The details are not important, but to answer the readers question, knowing that she was interested in playing with us gave us the opportunity to have several open and honest discussions about it.  We talked about boundaries, desires, fantasies she wanted to fulfill, and she had the chance to talk about all of this with her husband, who knew all along what we were planning.

I hope that no one should be surprised that it comes back to communication, before, during and especially after we play with someone who is exploring something new.  I say especially after because we want to make sure that our friend didn’t have any regrets, that it was a positive experience for them.  Obviously we’d have clues during that would tell us that she’s enjoying herself (multiple orgasms and enthusiastic pussy eating kinda give it away!), but a quick “hey, did you have fun last night? And it’s all good with hubby?” is still important.

Veronica: At the risk of being repetitive it really does come down to communication.  Communicating with the person or couple before, during and after the sex, even if its a quick email or text is important.  Also I think with a newbie in a 3some situation it is good to put them at the center of attention, so to speak.  Whether or not you have to be more assertive depends on the couple.  I do find though that when I have sex with a woman who is new to girl sex that I do need to take the lead a little bit.  However, I find that once they get into the sex that they become more assertive.

I also find that when I have sex with a woman who is having her first threesome experience I always let her know that I would not be offended if she did not want to reciprocate on the oral end of things.  She might get cold feet and I want her to know that it’s okay to change her mind.  A few women have said to us “I’m not sure I’ll know what to do!” and I’ve told them that the best way is to do the things that you like having done to you or to imitate  what the person who had gone down on you just did as people will often fall back onto how they like things  until they know exactly how you like it.

Hubman and I do not avoid newbies nor do we seek them  out.  In the beginning we had  actually been told by some more experienced couples to avoid people who prefer newbies as they often have some issue they are trying to hide and feel that they can best hide it with an inexperienced couple. Now of course we are not newbies so that is no longer an issue.

For an additional perspective this week, here’s The Dirty Side (did we ever come up with an alias for her?) with her take on being the newbie joining the “experienced” couple:

From our point of view I would also say that communication played a huge part in me coming up there and the fun that we had. If my husband would have been uncomfortable or did not want me to play I would have NOT. We talked about all the boundaries and the do’s and don’ts of it all way ahead of time and even on the day of me leaving. My hubby had their address and phone numbers in case I felt uncomfortable with any situation.
It all comes back to the communication and it is SO important on every ones part!  I felt extremely and let me say extremely comfortable meeting them and being with them.
I kind of in a way choose them to be my first. I had read both of their blogs for a long while and had some communication prior to all this happening. I knew they were good people from the talks on the phone and emails I had with them. I want some one who was still kind of new and yet had also done this and knew the ropes {sorta speak}. I liked Veronica from the very first time I read her blog and did feel a connection so I knew that her and I would hit it off.
I also knew that these two were very attractive people. So I was not my any means going into this blind.
Even thou I/we have not done this again {not for lack of not having fun, because I sure did} I would seek these two out again for a first! They were both awesome and kind.
I know I hope to make a trip soon to see them again :)
=======================================================================
So there you have it, the perspective of 3 different people on being a newbie.  Anyone care to add your own stories or comment on this? That’s what the comments section is for!!
And as always, we’re always happy to entertain suggestions for future Swing Shift columns, so don’t hesitate to chime in, either in the comments section or you can e-mail me at hubman38 at gmail dot com if you prefer to remain anonymous.
 Swing Shift, Swinging  3 Responses »

Swing Shift Volume 35- Stupid Mistakes

 Tagged with: , , , ,
Mar 162010
 

I don’t think they come any worse than this one.  Check out this comment I received about 2 weeks ago in response to my Marriage and Infidelity post from last June (someone was browsing the archives!!)

My wife and I married with the agreement we could both have sex with other people after our marriage.  We had both felt slighted in our past relationships and didn’t want to get stuck in a passionless marriage again.  Soon after our wedding we joined a swinger’s club in our area.  Big mistake on my part.  Why?  Several reasons.  Number one, my wife could find guys on a daily basis to have sex with, and even with her help in making me profiles and trying to make me marketable, we have tried for a year and haven’t found one woman interested in having sex with me.  Within three weeks of our marriage my wife had sex with a guy she found on Yahoo.  Several weeks later she had sex twice in a three-day period with the man next door.  Another big problem with joining a swinger group, as far as from a man’s perspective:  Most of the women advertise themselves as being bisexual.  Often we see women go to swinger parties with their husbands, and soon after they arrive, the wives are off playing with other women, while their husbands are left all alone.  So a word to the wise:  If you are a man, you are going to quickly be left very far behind when you become a swinging couple.  Then when your wife realizes how much more marketable she is than you are, since she is being pursued by bisexual women (even if your wife isn’t bisexual) and also other men, she will soon realize her need for you is limited.  Then the husbands have no bargaining power, because they don’t have anything sexually to offer their wives.  Yes, soon this marriage will be over, and hard lessons learned.  I will just warn the men:  You may love sex and want a lot of extra excitement, but it is a huge Pandaora’s box, with a lot of supposed promise, but very little delivery.

Good lord, what a mess.  I barely know where to start.

The first thing that struck me is that is sounds like they made separate profiles and this was NOT something they were doing together.  As we’ve written about before, single women definitely have the advantage over single men when it comes to finding playmates, so if I’m right about them doing this separately, it’s really no surprise at all.

Clearly, this couple didn’t have any discussions about boundaries if she’s banging the neighbor and leaving the husband alone while she goes off with others when at a swingers club.  It’s obvious that she was much more interested in fucking others than she was in fucking others WITH him.

Veronica: Yeah, while we don’t have the whole story, I am thinking that this particular woman took “swinging” as “permission to fuck everything that moves”.  These are two totally different concepts.  Swinging is something generally done together.  It sounds more like she wanted to venture off into hotwifing, and he was feeling left out and became resentful since he was not getting any.

This comment reminded me of an article in Self magazine last month. What? Shut up, it was Veronica’s!!!  lol…

Veronica: I don’t subscribe, for some reason it’s randomly sent to the house.

Anyway, there was an article called Meet the Swingers that shared the stories of several couples.  Almost immediately we could tell which couples were going to have issues.  There was the couple that “decided to try a threesome to spice up their sex life” and “wanted to use the third person as a way to enhance our relationship”.

Veronica:  While Hubman and I did want to have a threesome for fun and adventure, we were not looking for the person to enhance our whole relationship.  I think you have to have the sexiness within your relationship in order to happily find the sexy outside your relationship.  Its kind of like when your mom tells you that no one will fall in love with you unless you fall in love with yourself first.

How about the couple that admittedly had way too much to drink and the woman who had sex with a guy she wasn’t really into, then felt “pretty gross afterward”?  Even better, there’s the couple were the woman admittedly took one for the team,  “or I’d refuse, and we’d get into a huge fight.”

Veronica: I think the 1st time you are getting naked in a room full of strangers, a little liquid courage is needed.  I am not really a drinker at all, but I will down a few jello shots at parties, since I can never say no to the really hot hostess.  However at this point I could strip nekkid in front of a whole room full of people and fuck some of them with nothing stronger than a diet pepsi.  If you need to drink to hook up, then perhaps you should not be hooking up.

The idea of ‘taking one for the team’ is so wrong that I can’t even begin to go there.  You compromise with your partner on which movie to see, or perhaps which restaurant to go to, but if you are opening your cookie jar, you should be 100% happy with whichever hand is going in.  I do think the ‘taking one for the team’ is more of an issue for women.  If I am not really feeling the guy, I can get through the entire encounter and he would probably never be the wiser.  If a man is not feeling the love, he is going to have a harder time hiding that fact (pun intended).

There’s another woman who said “A couple of the guys I wasn’t attracted to, but because we’d rented a hotel room- and my husband seemed excited about it- I felt I should just go through with it”.  The thing that really struck with me about this particular couple was that while she could have sex with others, including couples, her hubby wasn’t even allowed to touch the other man’s wife! Talk about an inequitable situation, no wonder the guy violated their boundaries!  Clearly he wasn’t happy about the arrangement!

Veronica:  This couple clearly wasn’t communicating and had some very different ideas of what she wanted.  I think that this particular woman did not really want to swing, but instead of saying “I don’t want to swing”, she tried to be passive-aggressive about it and make it as unenjoyable as possible for her husband.

At least the article ends on a positive note, pointing out the couples who benefit the most from swinging are those that have a secure marriage to start with!  Hey, where have I heard that before? ;-)

=======================================================================

There was more to the article, including some psychobabble about why women might consider swinging in the first place.  But you know what the article never said or even implied?  How about simply acknowledging that group sex, in whatever combination works for you and your partner, can be fun!

Veronica: And it was a bunch of babble.  I think that there are some good girls who like to get fucked, some bad girls who practice celibacy.  Since it is now 2010 can we stop linking a person’s “goodness” to how many people they fuck and when they fuck them and instead judge the “good” and the “bad” by how they treat people whether they are fucking them or not?

Personally I think I am a very good person.  I am a good person that really, really likes to have sex.

I think that with Self being a pretty mainstream magazine they are not going to take the tack of “whatever floats your boat”, like a Cosmo might.  I also wonder if Hubman and I should write the editor and send them the link to this post.

As always, we’re open to suggestions for future Swing Shift columns.  We have one idea on deck but could use more, so feel free to comment here or e-mail me at hubman38 at gmail dot com.

 Swing Shift, Swinging  8 Responses »

Swing Shift Volume 34- Starvation Economy

 Tagged with: , , , ,
Mar 082010
 

If you remember our Swing Shift column “We’re Sexually Festive” from 2 weeks ago, I mentioned that we’d address the second half of her message to us, in the next column.  So here we are, and here is the rest of what she wrote:

The other term they talk about in Chapter 3 is “Starvation economy”: “if you give some to one person, you must be taking some away from another..”
From what I’ve gotten from me/husband talking about opening up our marriage isn’t ever about the sex, .. it’s about feelings/love that might come up between the people we play with and that’s another thing your post made me think about .. the whole thing of meeting someone being friends and then the one night stand.. I think it’s scary to think that feelings would come up ..but then that’s what we’re kind of looking for too.. friends. And sometimes (with out even putting a label on it) you love your friends .. and that doesn’t ever seem scary unless you mix sex in with it .. ??
Does that even make sense? I’m sorry if I’m rambling. .. I wish there was a book club for these kinds of books .. and/or there were people in my life that I really felt comfortable talking these things with ..I guess i’m just trying to learn as much as I can to figure everything out and get my husband in the same place that I am with this..

One thing we should remind our readers, Veronica and I aren’t necessarily polyamorous, which is what The Ethical Slut is about.  As swingers, we’re more interested in finding friends with benefits, fuck buddies.  A poly person is also looking for love in that relationship.  (If that broad generalization irks any readers who are poly, I’m sorry, that’s just the easiest way I could think to say it.  Feel free to comment and correct me!)    We managed to rummage through the house and find our copy of The Ethical Slut, and there are two thoughts that jumped out at me:

You may believe that if someone else gets something, that means there must be less of it for you

When it comes to sex,  particularly sex with a romantic component, it’s hard for most people to believe that more for you doesn’t mean less for me.

I think those two thoughts succinctly sum up what we’re talking about here.  In some respects, this may be true, after all there are only so many hours in the day. I can certainly see how the time spent with another partner (or seeking a potential partner) can distract from the primary relationship.  Hopefully, you and your primary partner can find the balance that works for you.  I know it’s something that Veronica and I have had to work at (mostly me, recall Communication Breakdown, from last spring), and have gotten better with over time.

The authors use an analogy about kids that I think any parent can understand.  You have a child and you feel a love that you’ve never felt before, but then wonder if you can love another that much, you wonder how that love might change if you have another child.  Then you have that second child and find that not only do you love this child as much, your love for the first has not diminished in the least.  Why do we allow ourselves to feel this way about our kids, but won’t consider it in other aspects of our lives?

I think that a fear of feelings developing between swinging partners is a rationale one, but the best way to deal with it is openly and honestly.  Once again, I need to mention our friend Southern Vixen.  While the love we share, and freely express among each other, while more platonic than romantic (is that contradictory, since I’ve had more sex with SoVix than any other woman besides Veronica?), it doesn’t detract in the least from the love I have for my wife.  I think the key is that Veronica and I are secure enough in our relationship, not just our sexual/physical relationship but in our emotional relationship, that we can share ourselves without reservation.

To go back to the readers comment, the evolution of a loving relationship with someone who started out as a fuck-buddy isn’t scary to us at all.  By the way, SoVix reposted some pictures in the last few days, the clearest views of our faces that you’re ever likely to see on the blogosphere can be found here and here.

If emotional entanglements are something you really want to avoid, I suppose it’s fairly easy.  As we’ve written before, Veronica and I are looking for friends with benefits, a little sport-fucking on the side.  But there are plenty of ways to get laid in the lifestyle without that- hotel parties, swingers clubs, even just acknowledging from the outside to another couple that you’re looking for nothing more than some extra-marital recreational sex.  You don’t have to become emotionally involved to swing.  For some people, no more than “I like you, you like me, we find each other attractive, so let’s fuck” is enough.  And I’m not judging that approach by any means, since I’m done my fair share of exactly that!

Veronica: I think the key is the health of the primary relationship.  While Hubman and I enjoy getting some sexual kicks from our other partners, we are not looking to them for emotional support in any way.  Do we like our sex friends?  Absolutely.  Do we care about them?  You bet.   When some of our local sex friends have had issues like job loss, I have reached out to them and offered my advice.  If any of them were god forbid, diagnosed with a serious illness, I would be calling and offering to bring them some ziti.  Do they detract or distract from my relationship with Hubman?  No.  Could I love another man the same way I love Hubman?  I don’t think so as that kind of love takes years to build and most of the people we fuck are not looking for a relationship that lasts for years.

==============================================================================

After we published We’re Sexually Festive, the woman whose comments inspired that post (and this one) e-mailed me and thanked me not only for my thoughts, but for the comments left by my readers.  So please, comment!  I think there are a number of people out there who many feel like she does, like they’re the only one feeling they way they do, which couldn’t be farther from the truth, and your comments help disprove that notion.

As always, comments, questions and suggestions are most welcome! If you prefer to remain anonymous, feel free to e-mail me at hubman38 at gmail dot com.  I have an idea or two for future volumes of Swing Shift, but am always open to new ideas or suggestions!

 Swing Shift, Swinging  5 Responses »

Swing Shift Volume 33- We're "Sexually Festive!"

 Tagged with: , ,
Feb 222010
 

That’s Veronica’s euphemism for calling ourselves sluts, though I prefer “manwhore” for myself.  This brings us to this weeks topic, which was suggested by a reader via e-mail a while back.  She has 2 main points/questions and rather than burden you with a 1500+ word post, we’re going to split it up over 2 weeks.  She wrote:

I just finished up reading ‘The Ethical Slut‘ .. I think that was one of the book titles you guys said you read already? I plan on leaving it in the bathroom and see if I can get my husband to read a few pages..

His thoughts/feelings on being a ‘Slut’ aren’t very clear and for some reason we’re having a hard time talking about it together.. I underlined some parts of the first chapter that really stuck out to me and I’m hoping will be good points to bring up with my hubs!

“A subset of this myth is the belief that if you’re really in love, you will automatically lose all interest in others; thus, if you’re having sexual or romantic feelings toward anyone but your partner, you’re not really in love. This belief has cost many people a great deal of happiness through the centuries yet is untrue to the point of absurdity: a ring around the finger does not cause a nerve block to the genitals.” – a quote on page 15 ..

What a great quote to someone that’s felt like they are crazy/strange/abnormal for feeling that way.. and maybe Veronica could chime in on the women’s point of view ..I guess it seems harder for me to have these feeling then if it was my husband bringing this topic up and trying to talk about it. It seems like the ‘regulars’ that hang around your blog have gotten past this part .. but for the lurkers out there (or occasional commenter like me ..) might be stuck on Chapter 1 .. in lots of areas of this adventure..

At one time I’m sure that I did write that we’ve read “The Ethical Slut”, it’s somewhere around the house, though it’s been a while since I’ve seen it and I can’t seem to find it.

Some people have trouble with the notion of a being considered a slut.  I can distinctly remember a conversation with Veronica waaaaaaay back when we were first dating and we were sharing details of our sexual histories.  Well, she was sharing hers, since I didn’t have one.  Anyway, I knew that she had a half-dozen partners during her freshmen year at college and I asked, innocently I thought, how close in time any 2 of them ever were.  I was curious if she ever slept with 2 different men in the course of one weekend.  She reaction was less-than-cordial, let’s just say that!

Veronica: I thought you were going to be judgmental and my more active past was going to derail our budding relationship.   That was the reason for any frostiness on my part.   I thoroughly enjoyed myself with the people I fucked before meeting Hubman (and after).  I would not even trade away even the bad sexual encounter, because without some bad sex, how can you really appreciate the awesomeness of great sex.

However I was very disappointed to learn that the double standard of male and female sexuality was alive and well in 1990.  Thank God that this dosen’t happen any more and slut shaming died with the first Bush Presidency. *sarcasm*

Yes, I’m talking about the same woman who in the last year and a half has had one man in the mouth and another in her pussy on several occasions.  The same woman who is looking forward to double penetration someday.  Perhaps this is evidence that people, and their attitudes towards sex, can change!

Thinking about the word “slut”, I guess the bottom line is that I don’t really care what label someone uses to describe Veronica or myself.  What I do know is that I love Veronica now more than ever, that we choose our extra-marital partners with care and respect, and never fail to remember that our primary relationship is the most important one.  If we’re considered sluts or promiscuous by others, so what?

Veronica: Personally I think calling someone a ‘slut’ is so seventh grade.  Hubman and I refer to ourselves as “Sexually Festive” or him as a “manwhore”, but it is done between the two of us with kidding and affection.    Getting hung up on a label is something you really don’t want to do.  I wonder if the husband is less hung up about the ‘slut’ label and more hung up about the implications of swinging.

Despite the assertions that ‘a ring around the finger is not a nerve block around the genitals’, asking your spouse to bring other people into your sex life is a loaded question.   I don’t read enough other swinger, polyamory or open marriage blogs to know how everyone got there, but in our case it was a mutual decision that came after much discussion.

If Hubman had one day said, “Hey, lets try swinging”  without any prior edging around the topic or at least some fantasizing,  I would have been kind of insulted.  And since we don’t know the couple in question who sent the e-mail we do not know how the topic was broached.  However,  I  think that this would be one of the most carefully worded discussions a marriage can have.

I also want to comment on the idea about having romantic or sexual feelings for someone outside of my marriage.  Many of my readers probably know that Southern Vixen is a great friend of ours.  She and I were talking on the phone last week and at the end of the conversation, we said goodbye and “I love you”, “I love you too”.  Hell, she and I have even shared those words while having sex, without Veronica around.  Does that in any way diminish the love I have for Veronica? Of course not!

Veronica:  It doesn’t because I know he does not love her the same way that he loves me.  I also love SoVix, but I am not about to toss my marriage and go run away with her.  (Although she does have warmer weather where she lives)

==========================================================================

Alright my friends, let’s hear it, what you do think of being called a slut? What do you think about our e-mailers situation with her husband and his attitude toward having multiple partners, thus making her a slut?  Are swingers by definition sluts? And even if others think of us that way, does that perception bother anyone?

Next week we’ll address the second half of her message, which asked for thoughts about “starvation economy”, or the idea that a person only has so much love to give and if you share part of yourself with one person, other relationships will suffer.  Looks like I really need to find my copy of The Ethical Slut and re-read parts of it!

 Swing Shift, Swinging  12 Responses »

Swing Shift Volume 32- Location, Location, Location

 Tagged with: , ,
Feb 152010
 

Veronica is taking the lead this week…

Veronica: Once you’ve gotten past the searching the profiles, emails, IM’s, phone chats, nervous 1st dinner, farewell grope in the parking lot and are up to planning the all important sex date, a big question comes into mind:  Where will we play?  Hubman and I are fortunate that the layout of our home allows for playtime and we’re in the midst of re-arranging our basement, primarily because it doubles (triples?) as the kids playroom, home office, and adult playspace for when we have friends over.

The kids bedrooms are on the first floor and at one end of the house.  The playspace is downstairs and at the other end of the house.  Between that, creaky floors and our less-than-stealthy kids, we’re comfortable having playmates come over after the kids are asleep.

Not everyone is that lucky.   This leads to people booking hotel rooms and paying for a whole night, when you really only need the room for a few hours.  (Something I am sure the hotel people love as they can send housekeeping in at the crack of dawn to get the room ready for the next night).  We have noticed that with the couples we have played with, most of them have not been able to host, due mostly to having teen-aged children.  (Baby-that means we have four years to find a house with a mother-in-law apartment)

Yes dear, I know.  Let’s not forget that the demands of my profession will likely have us moving sometime in 2012, so we’ll have an opportunity to find a place that is conducive to swinging AND having almost-teenaged kids!

Veronica: So since it seems that we’re often the hosts, it’s up to us to make the playspace welcoming and hospitable for our guests.  Our first concern is making the space welcoming and sexy.  Since the basement is also the kid’s playroom, the home office and a guestroom when we have overnight company (4th bedroom, how we miss thee) the challenge is arranging the space so our guests do not have to look at tons of kid crap or lots of personal filing.  Now a bookcase filled with books can be an interesting conversation starter.  Looking at a month of bills and other assorted paperwork sitting on the desk, not so much.  Hubman and I are working on  that problem by replacing our behemoth desk with a smaller secretary desk which can be closed up to hide the office items.

Our desk really is a behemoth.  When I was a doctoral student and we had that 4th bedroom that Veronica mentioned, it was perfect.  That bedroom was my home office and having lots of desk space for books, files, journal articles, my computer, etc, was great.  But we’re both at a point in our lives that we work at work and don’t bring anything home, so this desk has outlived it’s usefulness.  Anyone in the Boston area want to buy a desk? It’s on Craigslist!

Veronica: The kids crap is taken care of by a curtain we strung up to divide the room.  We looked into using some bookcases to accomplish the same thing, but then it blocks out a bunch of light, and when you are working with a basement, the 1st thing you have to deal with is the lack of natural light.

Most of our HNT pictures taken against a black backdrop are actually taken in front of the divider curtain.  Veronica bought a black sheet, we put holes in it using grommets then I strung some 1/8″ airplace cable using eye-screws.  It actually looks pretty good!

Veronica: Moving on to the floor, that is where  a lot of the action can happen.  We have good quality Berber carpet, but it still leaves rug burn with the least amount of friction.  For now, I throw down some blankets from the blanket box, but I think at some time we are going to need an area rug.  The lights are on a dimmer and we have a fireplace, but I think its time to move some candles to the basement to have some nicely scented mood lighting.

I don’t think that we need an area rug for downstairs.  One thing she hasn’t mentioned is that we have a futon, which is currently on the “kids” side of the basement but once we’re done rearranging, it’ll be on the “play” side.  So we won’t have to have sex with our friends on the floor anymore.  Unless we want to ;-)

Veronica: And then music.  Hubman and I really need to do something to have music down there.  We do not usually have sex to music, but some of our guests do and we take our hosting responsibilities seriously.

All we need to do is get some stuff on iTunes, create a playlist and have the laptop out.

I’m also thinking I need a discreet bin for some towels to wipe up sweat and other messes that comes from sex and have a nice place to keep the condoms and lube.

We have a sex swing and liberator pillows but never are sure when to bring them out.  It seems a little much for a first encounter, and due to the fact that we have the kids with a sitter before the company comes, we can’t exactly leave them out in the basement during the evening although the kids would be beyond thrilled that we put a swing in the basement!

Since the room is multi-purpose we can’t have it be sexy all the time, but need to be able to convert it into a sexy love lounge very quickly.   I would like to have items in the room that can easily be converted to play items, but do not look out of place in a multi-use room.

I wonder if the Design on a Dime team or any of the people from the HGTV or DIY network would want to take this on as a project?

========================================================================

For some couples, there are other options besides homes or hotel rooms.  There are always hotel parties and on-premise swinger clubs, and house parties.  But those settings often involve larger groups, multiple partners in one night and lots of being watched, none of which particularly appeal to us.  We prefer to connect with a couple and play in private.

So does our arrangement sound inviting? Once we’re done rearranging, I’ll take some pictures to share.  For our swinging friends with kids, how do you approach hosting friends at your house, if at all?  How to you feel about playing at a house where the hosts kids are asleep upstairs? How much does the kids age matter in your comfort level?

As always, comments and questions are most welcome, as are suggestions for future volumes of Swing Shift.

 Swing Shift, Swinging  8 Responses »

Swing Shift Volume 31- Excruciating Emails

 Tagged with: , ,
Feb 082010
 

[Click here for my Project 365 picture of the day]

Veronica: In Volume 14, Hubman and I talked about the importance of writing a good introductory email.  After all, the email is supposed to help start the dialog and get you to the personal meeting.  Obviously the people who sent us any of the emails below did not take advantage of that post.

Here’s a good one. What are we supposed to do with this? They say hello in the subject and that’s it. Is it too difficult to say something beyond hello?

But in the grand scheme of things, that one is pretty benign.  We get a number of these- they seem nice and polite but there really isn’t any indication that they’d like to hear back from us.

Here’s a good one.  They clearly didn’t read our profile, since while we might be interested, Providence is an hour away and we clearly state in our profile that we have young kids and need a day or two notice to arrange a sitter.  Contacting us at 5pm on a Saturday isn’t going to get a reply.  But I look at the profile anyway and it gets better- it’s a single guy masquerading as a couple,  in order to work around the “block single males” option that we selected.  Nice try pal.

Then there is the couple that inspired Veronica to say “we ain’t no “holla back” couple”!

And they’re persistent, they contacted us again the next day!

But you know, all of those are just examples of different styles of contacting people.  Maybe for other people e-mails like that would earn a response, but they don’t appeal to us.

Veronica:  Now if any of these couples had been smokin’ hot, we might have made allowances for their lack of literacy, because we are a little shallow.  But in all honesty, it really frustrates me when people do not send a decent email.  I am not saying you have to write a novel, but something simple with a note about what in our profile caught your attention, something about yourself that might not be on your profile or a recap of something on  your profile that is very important to you and most important, a CLEAR request for us to contact you is all we ask.  As an HR professional, I shudder to think what  a resume or cover letter from these people would look like since they don’t seem to have the first idea about selling themselves. Every communication method you use is your marketing and branding tool.  Figure out who you are and what you want before you go willy-nilly all over the internet.

On the other hand, this last message just offends me. Can you guess why?

Never mind that swinging is largely about attraction, physical attraction being very important.  The reason for their comment was that Veronica and I had given them access to our private picture gallery, which includes face pictures, and we had asked them to reciprocate.  Am I wrong to think that they are somehow insinuating that others don’t have respected roles in the community? And even if we didn’t, what the fuck should that matter or not?  We’re done with them.

Veronica: This is annoying.  I can understand that you don’t want a face picture out there in public.  But once you are trying to set up a meeting with people, and they have sent you a face picture, it is time to put up.  Hubman and I have had one date where we did not see face pictures first.  The code phrase was introduced before the menus even came  out.   I guess Hubman and I will have to stick to disreputable bums like us.

==================================================================

Has anyone suggested an idea for Swing Shift that we haven’t covered? I feel like I’ve lost track of suggestions.   As always, comments and questions are welcome, as are stories about your own experiences, so don’t be shy, because I’m a comment whore!

 Swing Shift, Swinging  10 Responses »

Swing Shift Volume 30- Communicating Boundaries

 Tagged with: , , ,
Feb 012010
 

In numerous posts we’ve talked about boundaries and the importance of you and your partner discussing and setting them.  Volumes 2, 13, and 16 all dealt with boundaries in one way or another, if you’re interested.  A couple of readers (sorry, I can’t remember who in order to give credit where credit is due) have asked how we go about communicating our boundaries to others.  What’s the point of having boundaries but fail to communicate them to your playmates, right?  Off the top of my head, I can think of 3 ways to do so.

A well-written profile can go a long way towards communicating what you like and dislike (Volume 13 also covers profiles in addition to boundaries), but you don’t want to overdo it either, so it can be a challenge to include them without coming across as narrow-minded or overly picky.

As we’ve written before, we generally don’t play on a first date and prefer to just meet for dinner and drinks somewhere, get to know each other, and see if there is chemistry in-person.  Part of the chemistry and getting-to-know-you bit can help communicate boundaries, masked as likes and dislikes.  Remember Backed into a corner, about the couple I changed my mind about during the 2nd date?  While that couple didn’t work out, during the first date there was a snippet of conversation I can recall that is a good example of what I’m talking about.  During dinner conversation drifted towards good and bad experiences in the lifestyle, and the other girl talked about how one time a guy blew a huge load of cum on her face, which she liked, but could have done without some of it in her eyes.  I’m no dummy and made a mental note that should we end up nekkid together, she just might be amenable to me pulling out and cuming on her.  (Yes ladies, of course I would ask first, even if I knew she liked it!)  At the same time, Veronica quipped “Oh, I don’t like cum on my face at all.  Maybe a little that misses when he cums in my open mouth, but that’s it”.  If the other guy was a good listener, he learned 2 boundaries that Veronica has.

However, not all boundaries are things that you don’t like, oftentimes they can be things that only your primary partner can do with you.  Anal sex is a great example for us.  It’s no secret to longtime readers of my blog that Veronica loves anal sex and even recently learned what her trigger is to make her cum during anal (Note to self: write about that one someday).  On our profile we write “She is very curious to try a DP and is looking for the right man to help us make that happen” which could make another man think he has a shot fucking her ass.  But no, he doesn’t.  I’m the only man that Veronica has ever taken up the ass, and she wants to keep it that way.  If there’s going to be a DP, I’ve got the backdoor taken care of!  However, Veronica has no problem with me having anal sex with other women (yeah me!) so rather than somehow carefully craft a statement about our anal sex boundaries for the profile, we deal with it directly if it comes up.

We recently had a very nice 1st date with a couple and are working on arranging a second date sometime soon.  After that date, the following was part of an e-mail they sent us: “D would love to witness a DP with B and Hubman if Veronica is up to it?”  Part of our reply said “One thing, just so you know, while she loves anal, we’ve mutually decided that her ass is mine and mine only” to which they replied “Fully understand and feel the same.”  With that, we avoided any potential issues when we get together.

Veronica: The real challenge is how to communicate the boundary without getting ahead of yourself.  No one wants to have a profile with an extensive list of what you will NOT do, but you want to communicate those important boundaries about kissing, same vs separate room, or orifices before the clothes come off.   In our experiences in meeting people and reading profiles, we all seem to have the same boundaries, (Nothing involving pee, poop or pain is the standard issue we see in profiles). (Hubman: a LOT of profiles specify exactly those boundaries!) We usually try to be playful about what is important to us and hope that the others get the underlying message behind the humor.   There is also the issue of what is a boundary as opposed to a dislike.  I do not like to be bitten by people.  But it is not something important enough for me to put in a profile or mention up front since most people are not biters.  But when I do encounter a biter, I just smile and say, “No biting, please” and that is usually enough to stop the unwanted behavior.

======================================================================

As always comments are welcome, about your own experiences with communicating boundaries.  Anyone have any misadventures about unknowingly crossing boundaries that you’d like to share?  Any lingering questions?  Also, future Swing Shift column ideas are always!  Feel free to e-mail me at hubman38 at gmail dot com if you’d prefer to remain anonymous.

 Swing Shift, Swinging  7 Responses »

Swing Shift Volume 29 – Maintaining Balance

 Tagged with: , , ,
Jan 252010
 

Last week a reader who goes by the name Sarah [no blog to link to] left the following comment:

How do you and Veronica balance couple time without other parties with your swinging activities?

The reason that I am asking is that me and my partner have to work really hard to find time to go on dates (to museums, romantic landscapes, canoeing, dancing, etc.) and I don’t think that we could ever prioritize other (random in the sense that they are not active in the long-term in our relationship) people as much as we prioritize our time with each other.

It seems from reading both y’all’s blogs that you guys rarely seem to go out without a swinging activity or strip club being involved.  (For example, your trip to Vegas…)  I’m especially interested in hearing from Veronica.  Thanks!

Thanks for the question, Sarah!

I think that finding “together time” is a challenge for any couple, perhaps more so for a couple with young children.  For us, going on dates with others is just another part of that our life, sometimes it’s a high priority, other times it is not.

Veronica and I have always tried to maintain that spark in our relationship, to continue to “date” each other as long as we’ve been married.  I can remember living in New Hampshire 15 years ago and a summer “date” would be nothing more than walking to a nearby restaurant, heading over to the local bookstore afterward, then finishing the night with a stop at Friendly’s for an ice cream cone (Veronica: mmmm, Friendly’s) on the way home.  As the years have passed, the particulars of what we do on a “date” have changed, but wasn’t changed is that we continue to make the time for each other.

[Side note: The Poly Princess wrote a post the other day in which she mentions she and her husband finding some important couple time while wandering the aisles of Costco.  See, it's not just us!]

I can understand where a reader may get the impression that other couples and strippers play a big role in our date nights, but keep in mind that for as much as Veronica and I share on our blogs and through Twitter, our readers don’t know everything about us.

Veronica: This is true.  I mean does anyone really want to read about our trip to Best Buy where Hubman speaks intelligently about the electronics he has so thoroughly researched while I smile and nod?  I don’t think so.

Our trip to Las Vegas is a great example of how we can balance the naughty side of our life with the vanilla side.  Once the dates were set, a blog/swinger friend figured that she could join us for 2 of the 4 nights that we were going to be in Vegas.  It worked out perfectly- 2 days and nights of fucking with a good friend, then she returned home to her family while Veronica and I enjoyed 2 more days of just the two of us.  It was perfect.

Veronica: Yes it was.  Can we go back to Vegas now, please?

Our “typical” date night lately is similar to that.  She and I will go out for dinner to a restaurant, then spend an hour or two at a strip club before returning home.  To be honest, we spend more quality time together doing that than on one of our old dinner and the bookstore dates.  At the bookstore we’d go our separate ways and maybe not see each other until we decided it was time to leave.  At a club, we’re sitting side-by-side pretty much the entire time, chatting, flirting, kissing, touching, basically extended foreplay for once we get home.

Veronica:  Hubman and I have never gone in for “event” dates as we enjoy different events.  If I want to see a ballet, or some experimental theatre, or Kathy Griffin in concert, I just go by myself, and if Metallica is in town, I give Hubman a kiss and send him on his merry way.

For us quality time is what you make of it.  I find that we have some of our best chats in the car on the way back and forth from dates, whether its a swinger’s party or a trip to Best Buy.  Having the two of us in a confined space without the distraction of kids, tv, or internet leads us to having some good and important chats.   We also have our quality time after the kids go to bed.  Even with the computers booted up we still find the time to connect while also sharing information on what we are reading.

And every once in a while, we will both escape from work and have lunch together, which is a great way for us to connect.  And for me how we make the connection does not matter.  The only thing that matters is that we DO make that connection.

So Sarah, that’s how we’ve managed to stay connected and find that time together over the years.  I hope we answered your question [and didn't sound defensive in the process!].

===========================================================================

Whether you’re swingers, in an open marriage, or neither, is how we manage to find time to connect really that different from anyone else’s?  Your thoughts and comments are always welcome!

If anyone has a question or idea for a future Swing Shift, you can leave it in the comments or feel free to e-mail me at hubman38 at gmail dot com if you prefer to remain anonymous to my readers.

 Swing Shift, Swinging  7 Responses »

Swing Shift Volume 28- Diversity in the Lifestyle

 Tagged with: , ,
Jan 182010
 

A reader named Lojo [no blog to link to] left the following comment:

I’m not a swinger and have no interest in joining the lifestyle, but am curious about the types of people you come across.  You’re obviously an intelligent couple.  Do your “dates” tend to be like you intellectually? Socio-economically? Ethically?  Politically? Religiously?  It is such a foreign lifestyle to me that I’m curious.  Sorry if this is too intrusive, and maybe not an appropriate blog comment.

Before we attempt to answer the readers question, I’d like to point out 2 things- I don’t know that we’ve ever had a question that we consider too intrusive to answer and whether a reader is in the lifestyle or not [or even just interested] is irrelevant to us.  We’ve had questions from experienced swingers, newbies, people who are looking to get started, and the just plain curious.  The point is, anyone is welcome to comment or leave a suggestion!  Okay, on to the questions…

First of all, thanks for the compliment, thinking that we’re intelligent.  But as I tell people when they learn that I’ve earned my Ph.D., I’m not very smart, I just went to school for a really long time!  Seriously, we don’t care about “education” because we’re more interested in physical attraction and chemistry and besides going to school doesn’t necessarily make someone intelligent, so I don’t think it’s fair to say that our dates tend to be like us intellectually.  Besides, I know a some very smart people with no more than a high school diploma and a few Ph.D.’s who are idiots…

As far as ethics, politics, and religion, I can’t say what the swinging community is like.  Some might argue that partner swapping and casual sex among married couples is inherently unethical!  Politically, I would guess that swingers as a group are more left of center than the general population, but that is just a guess and I have nothing to support that.

In our experience, the swinging community in our area is pretty white- I can’t recall ever meeting a black couple at any parties or clubs and we’ve only met a few Hispanic couples.  But on the other hand, there seems to be numerous black men on the lifestyle websites we belong to, so I did a quick search.  Within the search parameters I used [just age and distance], there are 227 white couples and 100 single white men, compared to only 7 black couples and 18 single black men.  So I guess my initial impression about minorities in the lifestyle in our area was correct.  Don’t ask me why I think that swingers are more likely than not to be white, because I have no idea!

Veronica:  As far as the socio-economic question, I have found that most of the couples we have met in the lifestyle seem to be at least middle class.  It’s my opinion that to participate in the lifestyle you need a little disposable income.  Even though  all you need to get started is an internet connection and an email account, there is more to it.  First off, you need access to internet at home, as most libraries will not probably let you access the lifestyle websites there, and even if you can, in many libraries you need to use your library card to access the internet, which kills the whole privacy thing.  You can have free memberships at the different sites, but they do not give you as much access and privileges as the paying memberships.    At some point you have to go out on dates with people, which is not cheap either.  When Hubman and I go to a party hosted by our favorite group between the party fee, sitter, and gas, it is easily a $100 night, and that is before any special theme outfits are purchased.  We are going to an on-premises club this weekend, and it’s a $20 membership fee, a $25 application fee and a $90 fee to actually walk in the door for the party.   Then you have the ancillary costs of cute outfits and lingerie to wear and it’s not being a very cheap investment.

Hubman: I KNEW that someday Veronica wouldn’t be a cheap date!  Hahaha

Veronica: We have not spent enough time with any one couple to ask about religion or politics. Discussions of what we all do for a living happen, but not usually indepth.  We tend to not mention Hubman’s Ph.D a some people find this intimidating.

When we search for couples we usually look for ones that have the same interests as us, (no pain, safe sex, no drama,) so since they are on the same playing field there, we feel the ethics match up.

===========================================================================

What we’re left wondering is if our experiences are atypical or not.  I remember Southern Vixen writing a post, I think it was before she moved to WordPress, talking about people from all walks on life in the lifestyle- doctors, cops, teachers, academics, military, IT professionals, corrections officers, self-employed, marketing, etc.  Do any of you have any experiences different from ours?  Are we off-base with any of our impressions about those are who in the lifestyle?  As always, comments are appreciated, as are suggestions for future volumes of Swing Shift.  In you prefer to remain anonymous, just e-mail me at hubman38 at gmail dot com and I’ll keep your identity to myself!

 Swing Shift, Swinging  9 Responses »

Swing Shift Volume 27- Backed into a Corner

 Tagged with: , , ,
Jan 042010
 

No reader-suggested question or topic this week, this one comes from our own (mis)-adventures!

About a month ago we had a first date with a couple that had contacted us through Swappernet.  When we initially checked out their profile, I was kinda indifferent towards her.  It’s not that she was unattractive to me, it’s just that there was no spark, no “ohhhh, I’d like to get to know her!”  But that was based solely on a few pictures [hey, some people don't photograph well] and their written profile, and Veronica liked him, so after a few chats and a phone call between the ladies we set up the first date.

Veronica: I thought their profile was very humorous and she was a pretty blonde with a curvy figure.  It was enough to want a meeting.  Her texts were amusing and she gave good phone.

We arrived at the brew pub a few minutes after they did and meet them at the bar.  My initial reaction “this might be a code phrase date” as I immediately thought that her profile pictures were outdated because her appearance was considerably different from her profile pictures, and not in a good way.

For whatever dumb reason, not only didn’t I use the code phrase, but I totally acted like I was into her and even gave her a nice kiss goodnight.

Veronica: I had NO idea.  This was the date where I was recovering from a migraine and actually threw up in the bathroom during dinner.  After I came back from the bathroom did Hubman use the vomiting as an excuse to leave?  No!  We hung out longer and chatted with them & I let them feel me up in the parking lot.

At this point, I felt like I couldn’t back out, so I didn’t say anything to Veronica, even when it was time to arrange a second date.  I did tell her that while I wasn’t that physically attracted to her, she seemed like a nice enough person and that I would be interested in seeing them again.  Keep in mind, normally if we have a second date with a couple, that means we want to swap with them.  But I wasn’t sure I wanted to have sex with her.

Veronica: I also missed that.  I blame my getting sick and the last minute Christmas craziness on the miscommunication.

To be fair to Veronica, until this weekend I never shared these thoughts with her, so while her blaming the migraine is polite, it’s also unnecessary.  I failed to communicate how I was feeling.

A few days before our date, she texts Veronica to give us a heads up that she just got her period, but it should be gone in time for Saturday night.  Seemingly forgetting my lack of physical attraction to her, I go into optimist mode and think of how we could work around that, if need be.  A matter of hours before our date, she texts again to let us know that Aunt Flo has decided to hang around a little longer.  I text back to let her know not to worry about it, that I’m sure we can find a way to work around it.

What is wrong with me?

Honestly, I believe that I talked myself into thinking that I was more attracted to her than I really was.  Why, I don’t know.  [As I'm sitting in bed typing this, Veronica answered that question with "you wanted fresh pus-say".  She gets giddy when she's over-tired.  Thank you dear ;-) ]

We meet for dinner at a restaurant and spend a couple hours enjoying each others company. They are nice people and pleasant company, and while we enjoy the evening, there is still no physical spark for me.  But now I feel like I’ve backed myself into a corner and kinda resolve to take one for the team.  We return to our house and spend some time making small talk.  At one point I excuse myself to use the bathroom and Veronica gives them a little tour of the house.  While Veronica is showing them around our friend tells her that she’s not feeling too sexy, with Aunt Flo hanging around, and doesn’t want to play.

Relieved does not begin to describe how I felt!

Very soon after they left, I confided all of my thoughts and feeling about her to Veronica and she was completely understanding.  But what to do now?  It’s late in the game to go with the “we’re not feeling the chemistry” line, or maybe we could use the “we’re taking a break for a while” line.  While telling the truth, that I don’t find her attractive, is obviously an option, how to do that without being insulting?  It’s different that when we’re still strangers to someone online, look at their profile, and say “No thanks, we’re not interested”.

Veronica: I was surprised.  However, it is ok.  While I liked them I wasn’t feeling, “I must fuck them or I will die”.  I also do not believe in taking one for the team.  It is my opinion that it is harder for a guy to take one for the team than a girl, because I can always fake arousal and orgasm.  A man?  Not so much.

I am not worried.  Luckily for us their family babysitter is going on an extended vacation.  If they contact us again, I will concoct some excuse.   They were not rushing to get touchy-feely with us, so perhaps they were also not feeling the chemistry.

======================================================================

So how’s this for a way to start the new year, huh?  Quite the situation I’ve created!  Please put yourself in my shoes, tell me what you would do under the circumstances.  Do we go with a white lie or find a way to gently tell the truth?

Assuming I don’t do something else dumb this week, suggestions for future volumes of Swing Shift are always welcome.  As usual, you can either leave a suggestion in the comments or e-mail me at hubman38 at gmail dot com if you’d prefer to remain anonymous.

Veronica: If you would like our he said/she said take on any other relationship questions, we are also game for that!

 Swing Shift, Swinging  12 Responses »
 Older Entries  Newer Entries

Subscribe Via Email

Enter your email address:

Delivered by FeedBurner